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Uh this is a webinar series on geothermal heating and cooling. Uh brought to you by Mission Geo and Geo

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Exchange. and very pleased and and very excited to have a a wonderfully uh smart, talented and informed group of

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panelists to talk to us about uh geothermal heating and cooling and uh geothermal heat pump installation with a

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real focus on what is a you know growing technology in terms of heating and cooling for the economic and energy

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security benefits it provides um and uh for uh all of the other uh good things

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it can do in terms of cost savings and in terms of grid resilience and want to provide some real world you know uh

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practical uh experiences. We’ve got four very um informed panelists. So I want to get right into it and not waste too much

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time with introduction. Uh I’ll just say I’m Scott Stone of Gleno Strategies. I’m an attorney and policy adviser and uh

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work a lot on heating and cooling issues and uh we’ll be moderating today’s session. So without further ado, would

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like to uh have uh Larry Lilfield uh step up. Hey Scott, thanks for having me

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today. I’m Larry Lofelt with Geothermal Eco Options. We are a ground loop installer based in the Midwest. We serve

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Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota along with Iowa and we do all types of ground heat exchangers whether it’s vertical, directional, pond loop, etc.

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Great. So, Larry, uh, geothermal implies we’ve got to go underground to to get at the heat and that’s that’s what you do.

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I’m wondering if you could just tell us, you know, what is a typical day at the office for you like in terms of uh, you

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know, drilling and putting in loops and, you know, installing the uh, the equipment.

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Our typical project starts with communications from the heating and ventilating contractor. Uh, we do the

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outside work which would then uh, connect to the the indoor equipment. So

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we work with them to determine the the size of the the project and they will do

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uh a a heat load calculation which then gives us the information necessary to put in the correct uh footage for for

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close loop. And we take that information, make a home visit, study the ground conditions to determine the

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most efficient and economical method for the homeowner to get that thermal energy

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transferred from the ground into the equipment. And depending on on the the

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conditions, we can look at uh vertical, directional, slinky loop style, etc.

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And if you could for you know we have a mixed audience. I think we have some people who know a whole awful lot about this and others who are are newer to to

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this space. How would you um contrast you know a uh you know geothermal heating and cooling with a traditional HVAC system?

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We spend a a a good amount of time educating customers on the the differences between a conventional

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system and a and a geothermal heat pump system for the for the uh size of space in the in the home. The the geothermal

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unit is going to take up about the same amount of space yet it does both heating and cooling. So we work with them to help them understand right now you have

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a a typical uh AC unit sitting outside and that wouldn’t be necessary uh with a

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geothermal heat pump. You would be able to have both heating and cooling performed with one unit. And we explain

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how we utilize a a fluid uh that will flow outside into the geothermal loop

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system to help extract energy, either pulling energy uh for warmth in the

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winter or help take the heat from the house and circulate it out into the ground to get rid of it in the summer.

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So, let me give you two scenarios. One is a big rural property where there’s a ton of land. The other is an urban property where there’s hardly any space

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at all. So you get the call and you’re headed over there. For both though, how

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do you overcome the skepticism of, you know, 40 or 50°ree water able to able to heat a home? What how do you break that

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down and explain how this works? That is a a very uh valid point. We do hear that

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frequently. The type of loop and how it functions is an educational process. We we do explain that the equipment itself

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has a refrigerant process and that the the thermal energy and the the control of that energy and the consistency of

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that temperature is what allows the geothermal unit to operate and that it’s simply transferring or flowing a fluid.

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There is no uh creation of energy. It already exists in the ground. And for us, the most time is spent on helping

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them understand it’s not necessarily just the size of the of the property they own, but what exists beneath the

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ground. Uh we have a a an opportunity for either vertical or directional. And

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when we look at the property, we we will determine if you have the space and and there’s plenty of of soil or or capacity

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for geology to do directionals. It’s been a more popular method. It can be placed uh underneath existing

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uh structures. Uh it can go underneath gardens, you name it, that would

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typically be thought of as having to be dug up. if there’s possible uh conditions that allow us to

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do directional boring, it does minimize the the uh amount of excavation

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needed. On the other side, if you’re in town and if there’s a smaller space, uh going vertical is absolutely a possibility no matter where you’re at.

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It’s just drilling through harder surfaces, rock, granite, limestone, that type of a a geological condition. Takes

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a little bit bigger equipment and a little bit more of a process to to get the drilling done and get the loop in the ground.

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And so, we all know what the the the conventional, you know, HVAC uh uh van looks like, you know, that pulls up

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outside the house or in front of one of your neighbors. But when you show up, you you bring a little bit more than a than a van. Um, two questions for you.

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Um, describe a little bit, you know, just what the the scale and type of of of, you know, drilling rig we’re talking

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about here and then, you know, what types of jobs, what types of careers that these represent. You know, this is specialized knowledge. This is highly

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skilled work and um the opportunities it can afford in terms of you know the way in which this industry creates jobs and

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the types of jobs you know that are that are created by it. Well, I like that uh lead in the the equipment that we

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utilize does vary based on the grade ground conditions. So a directional boring machine, many people have seen them

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uh putting in water lines or drilling underneath a roadway to put in fiber optics. uh that type of technology, a

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track mounted machine is one that we use for directional boring. So when someone calls us and we’re there to to do our install, there’s a a drilling component.

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So whether that’s the directional drill or it’s a vertical rig to do the rock drilling, similar to what you’d see as a water well, it’s the same type of

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equipment. uh we’ll have uh a mobilization of the drill and then uh a trailer with our support materials. Uh

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along with it, we will we will utilize uh a lot of water at the site when we’re doing our installation. So when we get

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set up, we do take a little bit of of space. Uh but when we’re when we’re set up and running, it is uh a typical uh

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drill rig, uh a support truck and a trailer that they would expect to see on the site.

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And and in terms of the jobs, I mean, I know from when we talked, you know, beforehand, um, you have some experience with career counseling and, you know,

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what kind of a job, what kind of a career is this to be, you know, installing, you know, geothermal heating and cooling equipment, uh, commercial,

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residential, you know, all over the country. Would you recommend it to, uh, to young people looking for something to do? Absolutely. uh a a career in this

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industry has both uh educational and uh environmental opportunities, you might say. And I I I go environmental from the

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standpoint that you’re outside. Uh a job that uh a typical uh job would have uh

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uh outdoor long hours. We we’d equate it to like a farming style occupation where

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you’re going to, you know, work when the sun shines, you might say, and if you if you’re enjoy being outside and enjoy the

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long hours, uh it it fits perfectly. An entry- level job could start as a driller’s assistant. It could start as skilled labor, but we look to grow from

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within. And in order to to do the work we do, we transport all of our equipment from job to job. So you’re looking for

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people that that can help transport. So there’s there’s uh ability to be a skilled laborer, uh a truck driver, uh

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once the equipment’s on site, they’re operating equipment. So you have equipment operation involved. And as

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those uh uh skill sets are attained, then there’s opportunities to to help look at work to do project management.

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Uh the the the the opportunities are are expected to grow and we like to enhance

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those. In order to become a driller, it takes uh a dedication staying on the job

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and also an experience of typically a couple years before you’re even able to to take the testing as needed for state

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certification to become certified drillers. So, we look to grow from within and look to provide those

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opportunities and assist in those trainings u almost always paid for by the employer. So it’s a great career

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path with without a lot of upfront training necessary. So there’s not a lot of college debt incurred in order to

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explore opportunities in this in this up and cominging industry. And I imagine there’s transferability or at least

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comparability to the oil and gas industry where there’s a lot of drilling there and heavy equipment type work. Is

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that a fair comparison? the the the skills throughout a day. I I I have a training program that we follow. It’s a

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registered uh training program and we help to explain that throughout a given day you you hold multiple job uh

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descriptions. You you may start off as a as a laborer helping to get the equipment loaded. Uh you might take on

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the the commercial driving capabilities to inspect the load and haul it. you then uh find yourself operating the

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equipment which which is another aspect and then you record depth you record uh

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samples of the material that you’re drilling and that puts you in an inspection standpoint of project management. So throughout the day, uh,

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a experienced driller is a combination of all of those. And that’s what makes the job challenging yet rewarding

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because even with dirty hands, you’re calculating very important uh data uh to to deliver the success of the job.

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That’s great. Well, I’ll tell you, you know, in closing, you know, my son, who’s now half a foot taller than me, when he was three or four, I mean, we

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didn’t go to playgrounds. We went to construction sites. So, I imagine you’ve probably had more than a few toddlers who, when you guys are at work, must

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come by and have to check out what’s going on. And, uh, I think we missed a trick not installing a geothermal rig at our house when he was younger, because

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he’d probably be working for you at this point. It it is very interesting. Uh we we look at it as a an an attractive

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challenge when you’re on a job site. You you appreciate questions. You appreciate the interest. It’s a it’s a a site that

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that respect for safety is necessary. So you want to make sure people have an opportunity to ask questions and yet

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keep them safe in seeing what equipment is necessary to do to install the uh the the loops. And the the biggest part for

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us is to engage all uh levels of opportunity, whether it’s a a middle school asking you to do a presentation

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or you allow a job shadow to to help educate for our industry what positions

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are available when it’s not necessarily obvious when you say installation of a heat pump or a ground heat exchanger.

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It’s not as simple as well driller. So, it’s great to involve as many people as we can to bring more uh exposure to our

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industry. Terrific. Terrific. Well, thank you, Larry. And um if we can circle back in group discussion, if time

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permits, we will. I’d love to move on to uh Peter Ernsen now. And Peter, welcome.

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Uh would you mind introducing yourself?

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Yeah, hello. Thanks for having me. Uh my name is Peter Ernsen. Uh I’m a senior mechanical engineer with IMAG. Um IMAG,

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we are a nationwide consulting engineering firm. Um we specialize in the commercial building market.

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And so Peter, after you know uh guys like Larry have come and and done the work, tell us what it looks like in

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terms of um you know the the uh the the customer experience in terms of um energy savings and and other benefits.

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What what is that profile like once the once everything’s been installed and is and is operating?

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Yeah, typically with the uh uh geothermal heating and cooling systems, uh we usually see, you know, there’s usually an upfront cost um but you’re

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making it up for it in the back end on an annual basis. So, um I know one project in particular that I worked with uh and Larry uh and his company did the

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install for in uh northern Iowa. Um, you know, we looked at that project uh and

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its energy savings and we were able to get an an annual energy savings of about $50,000 per year compared to a

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traditional HVAC system. Um, so that’s just in in energy savings. Um, and then in maintenance savings, uh, we’re also

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able to get another about $5,000 a year um, in annual maintenance savings there.

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Yeah. Because in terms of the um the the useful life of the equipment, I mean outdoors um it’s it’s significant. What

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is it up to 100 years if I if I remember correctly?

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Yeah, 100 or 50 years or somewhere in that. I think some warranties depending on the piping systems are 50 to 100 years. So that piece is a a long lifespan piece of the puzzle.

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And then, you know, once it’s in, um, you know, we’ve talked about, you know, offline, um, how some customers feel,

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you know, more independent, uh, more resilient, uh, from an energy standpoint and whatnot. Could you elaborate on

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that, you know, and and um talk about the types of designs or types of projects that, you know, once installed

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um a lot of work to get it done, but then once done really does create a strong feeling of independence from a

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from an energy and from a heating and cooling standpoint?

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Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you’re using a little bit of electricity from the grid, but you’re, as Larry mentioned, you’re using the the heat energy that’s already

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in the ground below you. So you’re pulling that heat energy up from the ground and using it in the winter um when you need heating and then you’re

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pumping it back in um when you’re needing cooling. So a lot of the savings that we’re seeing the annual energy savings is a reduction in in electric

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usage as well. So um that helps free up things uh you know that you can do operationally by having an annual

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savings. You know reducing that electric bill um every month or every year allows you to do a lot of other things as well.

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Um, another nice thing there is being able to have that opens up doors for, you know, future possibilities of, you

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know, uh, putting some on-site renewables or things like that to completely separate from the grid if that was something that wanted to be done, um, in the future.

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So, if you’re a and I’m going to make sure I get the term right, so if you’re a prepper, uh, this is this is a good technology to invest in. Um and uh and

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also just in terms of you know swings in commodities and availability of components this really does set you up

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for a for a good long time. Yeah it really uh steadies your you know annual uh expenditure um because it’s a very constant system.

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How do um you know if you were counseling you know let’s say a couple of different different scenarios you know one would be just a single typical single family

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home um second would be a um a a business you know a small or midsized um

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you know building third would be a much larger you know group of buildings almost like a college campus. How would

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you um or what kind of advice, you know, do you think decision makers for heating and cooling in those scenarios would

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need that would help you know fully reveal and underscore the benefits of geothermal heating and cooling? Yeah.

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And I would say it’s very similar for all three uh scenarios. And the main point is look beyond just the first initial

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cost. Um, a lot of times, uh, you know, geothermal heating and cooling systems, like I mentioned, they’re they’re going to cost a little bit more, um, because

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you got to put that well field in upfront compared to a traditional, uh, HVAC system. Um, but if you’re able to

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look beyond that first cost and really look at what are you going to say from an energy standpoint, what are you going to say from maintenance, how is

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maintenance going to be helped and improved as well? Um, those are things to really look at and consider. Um a lot of times what we do is we look at a

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total life cycle cost analysis um for a building. So we would do that for all three of the scenarios and many times

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when you look at that um you’re able to see that over the course of you know even just 5 to 10 years you can get a

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payback on a geothermal system. Um, and if you’re going to do a life cycle cost over the course of, you know, maybe uh

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25 years is is pretty common. Um, for for systems and equipment, um, almost every time we’re able to see a a good

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payback. Um, whether that be in residential, um, we’ve seen that, uh, as well. Um the project that I mentioned

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with Larry was kind of a a smaller size commercial uh project and uh they were able to to get a payback of about five

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years simple payback there. Um so that was a really good payback for them. Um we’ve done a college campus um as well

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um in central Iowa where they have uh four buildings. It was a new college campus. We looked at many many different systems and out of all of those uh in a

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25- year life cycle cost analysis, a geothermal HVAC system um came out with

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the lowest payback uh and it was pretty substantial. So they were able to get about a 10% return on investment and

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they have a simple payback of about 10 years for that campus with that system.

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So, there’s a bunch of college campuses that have um deployed geothermal heating and cooling.

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Um would you know of others that are out there that could be good reference points for those, you know, following on at home? Yeah, I I do know that there

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are are several. Um a lot of them would be either newer campuses or uh small to midsize campuses. I do know um just

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locally around here we have in the the De Mo area uh it’s De Moines University uh was a new campus um uh built about a

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year ago um and it’s completely a geothermal heating and cooling system um I think there’s 700 uh vertical wells on

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that system there um to serve all four buildings and to provide future expansion. um they bought a site with 88

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acres I think and they’re only taking up a small portion and they’re ready to grow in the future. So um that was also a part of it is having a central

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geothermal uh system was to allow them for future flexibility for um expanding

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and growing. It’s a lot easier on their end as opposed to a you know a chilled water plant or a steam plant or something along those lines.

22:36
Yeah. So that’s interesting to me that there’s, you know, there’s not a lot of difference whether it’s a single family home or a college campus. The cost

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benefits, um the, you know, uh maintenance benefits, nothing really changes. Uh you frankly just get the

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benefit of scale, but there aren’t tradeoffs that are had big and small.

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You know, a rural setting, a more urban setting. So, um I mean correct me if I’m wrong, but I mean this is a this is a

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highly versatile heating and cooling technology. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Very versatile.

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Um and like I said, it’s not very different. I mean, the only difference is the the space and the size space available for the wellfield and then the

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size of the wellfield. Um but obviously that also scales with your building. You know, we need a much smaller wellfield

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for a residential house compared to a college campus. Um in generally if you have a college campus you got a lot more space um available there too. Yeah for

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sure. Sure. Well um one thing I’d like to to close on as we segue to uh to John

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Thomas and a manufacturer perspective is you know uh the geography. I mean you mentioned Iowa. I know in the past, you

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know, um I’m a I’m a Big 10 school guy and it seems like any state with a Big 10 school seems to have a pretty good

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geothermal presence, but that’s not the only geographic uh area that um this really can can work just about anywhere.

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Is that is that correct?

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Yeah. Yeah. There’s, you know, I think Larry mentioned, you know, um whether you’re doing directional boring or vertical or slinky type, um there’s a

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lot of different options. So, if you’re in a a spot where the geology uh doesn’t have a lot of rock, um it’s, you know,

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clay, sand, you know, Midwest type, uh you know, the directional boring works really well there. Um, if you do have a

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lot of rock, um, or bedrock or limestone or whatnot, like the project that I mentioned that I worked with Larry on, that was one thing that we ran into was

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we originally designed it for a directional bore. Uh, but then when we got on site, there was a lot of rock there. Um, and so what we did is we

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shifted gears and went to a vertical bore field. Um, and so we were able to to do that. We’ve also had uh several uh

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other buildings usually on the commercial side where they may uh you know have a pond or a lake um built as well um part of the storm water system

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and we see that also on college campuses and uh they’re able to do kind of like a you know the slinky type system in the pond or the lake there um or you could

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do that under a residential facility as well. So very flexible. Um, and I know Larry mentioned, uh, you know, with directional boring going under buildings

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and stuff. We’ve had direct experience of that with, uh, uh, a local high school where they wanted to do an addition and we had to do a directional

25:36
bore underneath the existing building and it worked really well.

25:41
Great. Great. Terrific. Well, thank you, Peter. This was great. And, uh, we’ll see how much we can circle back if time permits, but um, but this was great. And

25:49
let’s pivot now to the manufacturers’s perspective. And John, would you mind introducing yourself? Yeah, absolutely.

25:57
Thanks, Scott. And thanks to the rest of the panel for joining us today. John Thomas, uh I uh lead the water furnace business. Uh I’ve been here for the last

26:05
eight years with the team and we’re located in Fort Wayne, Indiana. And I guess I’ll just put a plug in here that

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we we walk the talk of geothermal heating cooling. So, we’ve got uh uh nearly 250,000 square feet of operating

26:21
facility here, and we heat and cool and make all the hot water for the entire facility from the bottom of our 3 and a half acre pond.

26:29
Terrific. And so, so at so at Water Furnace International, you’re you’re making the equipment that that guys like Larry and and and Peter are are are

26:37
installing. tell us about what you make and what the market you know looks like right now in terms of um you know where

26:46
there’s demand and and how you’re you’re working to you know meet that demand with your business. Yep. Okay. So, I’ll

26:53
try to break it down in two main categories. Uh the residential side of the business that’s been referenced in some of the dialogue from Larry earlier.

27:02
Uh these are single family homes that can be very moderate in size up to very large homes. Um as well as multifamily

27:11
dwellings whether that be apartments or condominiums. So um so that whole spectrum of residential structures

27:19
across the US. We’re making the geothermal heat pump that connects to the loop that Larry installed and we’re

27:28
using that circulating fluid from the ground and pulling heat out of it to keep your home comfy cozy in the wintertime and then pushing the heat

27:37
back into the ground in the summertime to keep it cool and at a humidity level that is acceptable. On the commercial side, it’s

27:45
kind of along the lines of some of the diversity that Peter was talking about.

27:49
So commercial can be everything from a doctor’s office or a dentist’s office,

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uh a small retail um uh restaurant all the way progressing on up into every

28:03
size of building in between that. And one of the most recent uh large projects that is just finishing up is we just

28:12
retrofitted and supported an expansion um in Louisville, Kentucky for the Muhammad Ali Louisville airport

28:20
renovation and expansion. And that obviously is some very large equipment that coupled together would be couple a

28:29
couple times bigger than a large minivan. Um and those are in the mechanical room of that facility.

28:35
multiple tons of cooling capacity that would serve the entire airport.

28:41
And so we’ve hit on a couple of, you know, the benefits obviously in terms of um you know operational cost savings, uh

28:50
performance and reliability. Uh, I know we don’t want to get too far down into the weeds, but I think we could make an exception for a from from a

28:58
manufacturer’s perspective. in terms of the types of equipment you’re making and in terms of those those values of the of the overall, you know, geothermal

29:06
heating and cooling approach, what are what are some recent innovations or what are some focal points for you in terms of equipment design and manufacture that

29:15
you’re focusing on that help deliver, you know, and ensure those cost savings and and underwrite that that liab reliability.

29:23
Yep. And I think I think that’s a great leadin. You know, reliability of heating and cooling equipment is it’s it’s kind

29:32
of the asset that building owners and homeowners have that we don’t really talk about it all that much, but we know

29:40
when it doesn’t work and uh we get uncomfortable fairly quickly, whether it’s in the winter, the summer. Um and

29:48
so the reliability associated with equipment is important and the integration of advanced controls um in

29:57
terms of managing how the machine operates and responds to different outdoor temperature conditions and

30:06
responds to different conditions in your home. um to look at the residential side. The advancement of the integration

30:12
of controls to improve the operation has impacted comfort and it also impacts reliability because we make sure we kind

30:21
of keep the machine between the lines so to speak. So we’re not running off the edge of the road. Um, and that helps from a reliability standpoint, which is

30:30
important because when you’re investing in this system that may cost one and a half to two times what a traditional

30:37
system does, the reliability of the equipment, it typically lasts twice as long because it’s under lower stress and

30:44
it’s operating inside the facility. Um, if you let me nerd out on one more point in that area, I would go ahead and

30:52
highlight the advancement of variable speed operation. So, in the old days, um, and some HVAC equipment today still

31:01
operates like a light switch on your lamp in your living room. It’s either on or it’s off. And that certainly provides

31:09
a function to keep your home uh properly uh conditioned for heating or cooling, but it’s not the most efficient way to

31:18
manage that. And so variable speed systems, uh, for those homeowners out there or building owners, if you have

31:25
people saying it’s it’s too warm in this room and it’s too cold in this room at the same time, that’s temperature

31:33
stratification. And variable speed systems that operate continuously go a long way. and

31:40
sometimes with zoning to be able to make sure that everybody in the home, every bedroom, and all areas of a commercial

31:49
building facility can be equally comfortable.

31:52
That’s great. I mean, I know in our house, um, whether it’s too warm or too cold just depends on whether there’s more than one person in the room. But

32:00
still very, very useful. And I think also importantly is, you know, this is all equipment. um this whole industry

32:07
this is as made in the USA as it can get right I think so yep absolutely so all the major manufacturers that comprise

32:17
over uh 95% of the market I will estimate are operating domestically right here in the US with still a

32:26
significant amount of domestic content of local manufacturing and fabrication on the components that are used to build

32:33
this equipment and Then to um to zoom out a little bit

32:39
um to touch on briefly the benefits that this kind of technology has for the power grid. I’m wondering if you could

32:47
speak to a little bit about you know what do electric utilities value in terms of having geothermal heating and cooling operational within their areas of operation.

32:58
Yep. So I’ll I’ll make what might be a bad analogy but I’ll give it a try. So, an electric utility when they’re generating power to provide to our homes

33:07
or our industrial facilities or our commercial buildings and offices just like I’m sitting in now, their best

33:14
operating mode is no different than you operating your car on flat land at 55 or 60 or 70 miles an hour cruise control.

33:24
They want to operate very consistently.

33:27
The challenge is uh the demand of power has terrain like some exciting roadways

33:34
and that terrain changes as a function of the time of day and the temperature outside. So, in the morning when we’re

33:42
getting up in the morning and getting ready to go to work or putting kids on the school bus to go to school, there is a spike in the morning. And you can

33:49
imagine we’re coming off a cold winter night in Minnesota or Fort Wayne or Dallas, Texas. Doesn’t really matter. If it’s been a cold winter night, the

33:58
heating system is kicking in strong trying to recover to the thermostat setting that you’ve prescribed it to.

34:03
Same thing happens in the evening when everybody comes home, electrical demand goes up. And so managing that terrain in

34:10
those peaks and valleys is extremely challenging for power generation uh facilities across an investor own

34:18
municipal or rural co-op utility as well as uh the grid operators that are trying to tie all these different networks

34:26
together and balance the load. So, what geothermal heating and cooling does because of the heat exchanger that Larry

34:34
installs and the equipment that Peter designs and puts into their customers buildings, it operates uh in a range of

34:43
two to sometimes 3x the efficiency when it’s cold outside and when it’s very warm outside. that shaves the peak of

34:52
the impact of that terrain to the electric utility in a way that makes it much more efficient to them to operate.

34:59
And it has an impact from a utility standpoint ultimately that it provides the lowest cost rates to the rate payers

35:08
which are you and I and every user of electricity within a given grid. It provides the lowest cost option for them

35:15
to operate which is then passed on to the consumer based on regulation in every state. Yeah. And and so like as a

35:24
shorthand and I’ I’ve actually been really interested in this where if if you have geothermal heating and cooling yourself, you’ll save money over the

35:31
life of the equipment compared to a typical HVAC system. But you also might very well save your neighbors money as well in terms of just overall power

35:40
costs by you’re helping them in a small way. They may owe you a Diet Coke or a beer for the help you’re giving them on their rates. Yep. It can add up.

35:48
Absolutely. Yeah. And and these days a Diet Coke or a beer is Sounds good to me. Um well, last last thing before we

35:58
we we pivot to Ryan is, you know, looking ahead, um what do you see in terms of opportunities for growth? And you know, what are you excited about?

36:07
And um you know, how are you how are you incorporating that into your your planning as a as a manufacturer, as an employer in the state of Indiana and the

36:16
Fort Wayne area and all that? Yep. So, great question. I’ll try to be concise because we could get excited and talk

36:23
about it for quite some time. I I guess to make a couple of points, um I I’ve just always viewed um managing energy

36:32
cost as a fundamental and foundational input to an effective and growing economy. And right now the world and

36:41
good old US and North America are in a mode where expanding our energy options and providing diversity and independence

36:51
on global activities and the cost of energy. It’ll be good for our economy and good for our society over time. And

36:59
if you talk to a building owner and or a homeowner and you explain to them that they already own 75 to 80% of the

37:08
thermal energy they’ll ever need to heat their home and or their building and make hot water, you’re going to need to explain that because it’s not intuitive.

37:17
But with the equipment that Larry and Peter install and design every day, that’s actually the fact that the thermal energy is already on the

37:25
property where your home or building exists to provide 75 to 80% of all the thermal energy needs that you’ll have

37:33
going forward. So, it’s a pretty vivid example of what energy to independence can look like for an individual

37:40
homeowner or an individual building owner. Um, I think the the other thing to think about in terms of what to get

37:48
excited about is providing the lowest cost options over the life cycle of the equipment for building owners and

37:56
homeowners. That’s fundamentally beneficial. And then just to sew the button back on what Larry was talking about earlier in terms of the

38:04
opportunity for jobs and what kind of opportunities exist for wellpaid highskilled jobs for individual small business contractors across the country.

38:16
It’s it’s like um we’ve taken the entire country and said everybody has access to

38:24
a energy source that can be utilized everywhere. And that’s a very unique paradigm versus the way we’ve operated

38:32
uh over the last say hundred years with the evolution of the current energy system. So there’s some exciting times out there and the good news is we’re

38:40
starting to see more and more traction and awareness and interest in terms of we want to consider geothermal heating

38:48
cooling as an option for our next construction project or for my home when my furnace or heat pump or air conditioner goes out.

38:57
Great. Yeah. And you know, that was a that was as good a a preview as any for um we’re going to do a few more of these webinars. Want to drill deep into

39:06
workforce development opportunities um into um you know uh grid resilience, grid management and just overall you know investment at the utility level.

39:17
and then unpack some marquee, you know, projects and really get into, you know, what their anatomy is like and and what

39:25
this looks like when you’re starting to pencil out numbers and and and and deploy at scale. Um, which is a nice

39:31
segue. Last but not least, Ryan Dockerty, the doc, uh, care to introduce yourself? Yeah, thanks so much, Scott.

39:40
It’s a pleasure to be here today. And, uh, Peter, John, and Larry are certainly tough acts to follow. Uh but uh want to

39:48
introduce myself, Ryan Dockerty with Geo Exchange. We’re a nonprofit trade association representing companies and stakeholders in the geothermal heating

39:56
and cooling industry. And our our mission is pretty simple. We aim to accelerate the deployment of the most efficient and effective heating and

40:04
cooling technology in existence, which are ground source geothermal heat pump systems. And uh you know, you could be

40:12
forgiven for thinking that this is a niche technology, but it’s it’s already installed in in over 1.3 million homes

40:20
and businesses across the country. Most people don’t know that though. And and the reason for today’s

40:27
webinar and for the future webinars is to to really give voice to the technology to the value chain uh to the

40:35
success stories that that more and more more and more people are learning about.

40:40
But uh we really need to do a better job as an industry of amplifying. So grateful to you Scott for helping put this together and and look forward to uh

40:48
digging in a little bit. Yeah. No, terrific. I I think you hit the nail on the head which is um geothermal is

40:57
trending. Uh I feel like you know there have been more hits in the news and on Google on geothermal energy and

41:04
geothermal heating and cooling in the past you know six seven weeks than maybe in the prior decade. I mean it really

41:11
seems like it’s ascending. There’s a lot of interest and rightly so. And um from

41:18
a policy perspective, you know, given all of the all of its attributes um in terms of cost savings and and grid

41:26
resilience, in terms of the you know, workforce, you know, opportunities that that it creates um that, you know, makes

41:34
it the kind of thing that um is deserving of policy support especially because it’s a you know, inherently domestic industry. You can’t outsource

41:43
geothermal heat. um you know this is all you know made in the USA. So without

41:49
getting into um you know the minutia of the tax code um wondering uh you know how you’d characterize kind of you know

41:58
where the industry is in the policy space and and what the outlook is in the near term and then maybe a little bit beyond the near term. Yeah, happy to do

42:07
that. And and it in order to look forward I think it’s often useful to look back. Uh, I think you mentioned in

42:13
your conversation with Larry, uh, some commonalities with the oil and gas industry and and the geothermal uh, industry and this technology really

42:22
sprang out of oil and gas uh, in Oklahoma in the 1970s where uh, drillers

42:28
and and uh, subsurface uh, geologists were uh, not just looking for uh, oil

42:36
and gas, but they were also finding a limitless supply of heat down there. And uh you know John talked about the common

42:44
sense value of that and just using what is at your disposal. Uh as the industry matured throughout the 80s uh it it was

42:53
states like Oklahoma, Indiana where uh elected officials, regulators, utility

43:01
uh executives realized that we should support this because it’s good for America. It’s good for the economy. It’s

43:08
good for our our energy security. And that’s really when uh uh sort of a mission and a purpose materialized to to

43:16
give this technology a fair shake. And so uh thanks to uh folks who who really saw fit to to get the technology

43:26
included in the tax code, uh we first entered uh the the revenue code in 2008.

43:33
and and it’s because of strong bipartisan support uh from from folks in in the Oklahoma delegation, in the

43:40
Indiana delegation who have have really uh gone to bat for us on Capitol Hill uh

43:46
in regulatory bodies to say, “Hey, this is great stuff. We’ve we’ve got to support it uh and and see it through and

43:55
help help grow and ampl amplify this uh technology and its adoption.” So, it’s it’s been a bit of a roller coaster. I I

44:03
mean, Congress has has been in the habit of picking winners and losers, and although we’ve got 1.3 million systems in operation, that’s a very small f

44:12
fraction of the overall built environment. So, we’ve we’ve been a bit of an afterthought in in some ways. And

44:19
so, our mission now is to really uh get the message out uh to build and and capitalize on that uh pre-existing

44:27
bipartisan support. And and what we’re looking for is certainty. We in order for Larry and John and Peter to continue

44:36
to to draw investment and to tr to continue to make investments in their own businesses, uh you you you can’t be whiplashed back

44:44
and forth uh by uh one being in one day and out the next. So uh tax certainty is

44:51
certainly uh something we’re looking for and advocating for in the future.

44:56
That’s great. That’s great. And that that’s a great way to to to wrap things up for today. Um you know want to be mindful and respectful of everyone’s

45:04
time and make this you know digestible enough. Um we will be coming back in the coming weeks with with um you know other

45:11
topics as part of geothermal heating and cooling and you know really want to try to be a uh a resource um both you know

45:20
reflect and and substantiate the incredible expertise that’s out there and also you know bring uh bring new folks uh into the fold. Um you know it’s not rocket science, it’s rock science.

45:32
Um even so, you know, we still want to uh you know, try to break things down and and spread the good word and um and see what might might flow from there.

45:41
So, um on behalf of the group and Mission Geo and Geo Exchange, want to thank everyone who has tuned in. Um it’s

45:49
always a little strange when you’re doing these things virtually. You have no idea who’s all out there, but nevertheless, we’re very grateful. And

45:56
also a big thanks to uh to our panelists uh for you know bringing your expertise and your energy for today. Um there’ll

46:05
be uh uh summaries uh circulated um both on paper and uh the the audio itself and

46:12
then ultimately kind of a super cut uh of the sports center highlights of uh of what we’ve talked about. And um we’ll be back with more uh in the coming weeks.

46:22
So again, big thanks to everybody and uh have a good weekend.

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